Curse

Moloch Vein · Jan 23, 2008, 12:07 AM // 00:07

I wouldn't call an Orders necro very "gimmicky" to be honest... no more than a Taint-bot.

Ensign · Jan 23, 2008, 01:13 AM // 01:13

Icy Veins is not the best skill on your bar, ever. If you're using PvE skills it's probably not even in the top half. However there is no Necromancer elite that you can take that would be in the top half. I'd never say that Icy Veins is an awesome elite, but if you aren't specced for / don't want Spiteful Spirit or Spoil Victor for some big damage on off targets, Icy Veins is the next best Necromancer elite.

The only other elite I'd seriously consider for PvE is Offering of Blood, barring Minion Master elites.

Draginvry · Jan 23, 2008, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

I wouldn't call an Orders necro very "gimmicky" to be honest

Gimmicky in the sense that it is the only thing on my bar other than Necrosis that is actually doing any real damage. Everything else is just utility or life steal (in case I start taking hits).

I do really like Well of Blood and Blood Bond. They are good for extending the life of heros, who aren't very good at retreating when they are under too much pressure.

Moloch Vein · Jan 23, 2008, 01:50 AM // 01:50

The main question isn't whether N elites are weak or strong, the main question is if Icy Veins is ever valid (or perhaps I should rather say: "optimal") to pack in any serious PvE setting, for any build. I would probably run a build with no elite before I used it, and that goes for my heroes too.

Moloch Vein · Jan 23, 2008, 01:51 AM // 01:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draginvry

Gimmicky in the sense that it is the only thing on my bar other than Necrosis that is actually doing any real damage. Everything else is just utility or life steal (in case I start taking hits).

I do really like Well of Blood and Blood Bond. They are good for extending the life of heros, who aren't very good at retreating when they are under too much pressure.

Eh, SV+OoP gives you two "real damage" spells.

Ensign · Jan 23, 2008, 06:03 AM // 06:03

I don't think Necro non-elites are so deep that Icy Veins would be pushed off of your bar, provided that you're already specced for the high Soul Reaping. But you're talking about some odd character anyway that isn't specced heavily enough into Curses or Blood for Spiteful/Spoil Victor, and isn't a MM, so it isn't like we're talking about a lot of characters here. We're looking at guys like N/Rt healers or the like, where the elite choices are similarly uninspired and I think there's a good case for Icy Veins.

Moloch Vein · Jan 23, 2008, 06:33 AM // 06:33

Weapon of Remedy is a decent Restoration Magic elite. It certainly beats IV with a "N/Rt Healer" spec.

Seriously, though, I'm interested. Name a specific build for PvE where you feel IV is called for.

Bargamer · Jan 23, 2008, 06:49 AM // 06:49

Moloch: I gave my Necro Hero IV, Putrid Bile, Death Nova, Fiends, Signet of Sorrow, Signet of Lost Souls, Mantra of Inscriptions, and Leech Signet to complement my Rit/N Minion Bomber and we pretty much H/H through all of Nightfall and GW:EN. But eh, it's PVE. You can pretty much get away with anything, right?

Moloch Vein · Jan 23, 2008, 07:08 AM // 07:08

^ I assume that the hero is specced with 12+1+x Death Magic.

You'd be better off running Jagged Bones, Discord, Virulence, Tainted Flesh or Wail of Doom than IV on it.

Ensign · Jan 23, 2008, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Weapon of Remedy is a decent Restoration Magic elite. It certainly beats IV with a "N/Rt Healer" spec.

I'd run Icy Veins over Weapon of Remedy on a PvE Necro/Rit; I don't feel like that's even a close call TBH. If you really want a Restoration elite you run Spirit Light Weapon. But I'd take Icy Veins over either, especially on a hero where micromanaging the skill isn't a problem. As a player I might go for Spirit Light weapon just to avoid micromanagement headaches.

I feel the need to point out that it's weak *focused* damage when cast. It's really the only Necro elite I'd consider that's put on a focused target; Spiteful and Spoil Victor, while unquestionably stronger, very rarely go onto focused targets. The bulk of the damage dealt by all 3 elites is incidental, which keeps any of them from being the best skill on a Necro bar.

Bargamer · Jan 23, 2008, 07:46 AM // 07:46

Hrm... Discord... *Experiments with THIRD Necro.*

I might do a FOURTH Necro, for /Rit, see if the healings are worth it.

Dr Strangelove · Jan 23, 2008, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Unfortunately, spirit light weapon is pretty terrible. If someone is taking a pile of damage over 10 seconds, you want weapon of warding/shadow on them, not a second-rate healing over time spell. In practice, it really doesn't perform any better than the non-elite spirit light.

Pretty much all the elites you could stick on there are going to suck, so you may as well grab something like icy veins or weapon of remedy that adds incidental damage.

arsie · Jan 23, 2008, 08:32 AM // 08:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagged

...I'm using SAB's builds for my heroes and don't think I could do better at Curse...then they do...

Pay attention to your heroes when they run a Curse build. They almost always spend Mark of Pain upon contact on single targets.

While I am not really good at casting the right hexes on the best targets, I usually can manage much better than the heroes. Especially if you ping Barbs and Mark of Pain, the yellow numbers will start to fly.

I feel kinda sad that the Blood line is sub-par to the other lines in PvE. I do not see much that can be done for it. Perhaps the line should have been a support line all along. The only thing you cannot do with sacrificing blood is to heal and prot others.

Moloch Vein · Jan 23, 2008, 09:48 AM // 09:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I'd run Icy Veins over Weapon of Remedy on a PvE Necro/Rit; I don't feel like that's even a close call TBH. If you really want a Restoration elite you run Spirit Light Weapon. But I'd take Icy Veins over either, especially on a hero where micromanaging the skill isn't a problem. As a player I might go for Spirit Light weapon just to avoid micromanagement headaches.

Disagree strongly. Weapon of Remedy is a far better heal. It fits with the mode of operation of the N/Rt which is spam healing. It removes a condition, and it delivers incidental pressure by life stealing. It has a very fast cast and a fast recharge. In fact, the casting time is so short that you can often remove Dazed from yourself with it. By comparison Spirit Light Weapon is utterly impotent, for reasons already mentioned above by Strangelove. Weapon of Warding is stronger if you want a protection over time for a character, Resilient Weapon is also stronger. I have saved many people with Weapon of Remedy and Weapon of Warding. Spirit Light Weapon has left me feeling helpless.

A human player will also have a marginally easier time with WoR than running Icy Veins, because he won't have to switch Friend <-> Foe for anything. This consideration is only added as an afterthought.

Regarding the "focused" damage of Icy Veins, the initial damage is so weak as to be nearly non-existent. What the "big icy kaboom" will hit is anyone's guess, but suffice to say, whoever it is, they likely won't mind. As for the shallowness of the N lines, Putrid Bile is stronger than Icy Veins - if I had to choose between the two on a bar specced into Death Magic, it wouldn't be close. Not that Putrid Bile is terribly good either. The main question is if a character, in any serious PvE setting, is ever justified to churn out 10e and 1s every 6 seconds for the sad damage that is Icy Veins. I've never felt that inclination.

Ensign · Jan 23, 2008, 11:55 AM // 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

Unfortunately, spirit light weapon is pretty terrible.

Why yes. Yes it is. So is Weapon of Remedy; it's a marginal skill in big fights period, with none of its strong points being relevant in PvE. Spirit Light and Mend Body and Soul are going to outperform either elite Resto weapon, and Preservation is awful.

Which is why I'd run Icy Veins or even Reaper's Mark in that slot. They at least give you another ability, even if they aren't anywhere near money.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

A human player will also have a marginally easier time with WoR than running Icy Veins

That is the only reason I would run a Restoration elite over Icy Veins. I think there's a strong case for not running an elite on that character.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Regarding the "focused" damage of Icy Veins, the initial damage is so weak as to be nearly non-existent.

That depends heavily on where you're playing and what you're throwing it at. It's obviously awful against hard mode centaurs, but it's not worthless against, say, normal mode EotN Charr.

The explosion effect is similar of course; it's worthless if you're fighting Jotuns, but it's far from worthless against big stone summit, undead or other mobs packed in tight dungeon corridors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

The main question is if a character, in any serious PvE setting, is ever justified to churn out 10e and 1s every 6 seconds for the sad damage that is Icy Veins.

The kinds of characters that would run Icy Veins are not the kinds of characters I would want in Hard Mode; certainly not on a player character. I can see running it on a hero if you need some odd niche thing but that's the extent of it.

Moloch Vein · Jan 23, 2008, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Why yes. Yes it is. So is Weapon of Remedy; it's a marginal skill in big fights period, with none of its strong points being relevant in PvE. Spirit Light and Mend Body and Soul are going to outperform either elite Resto weapon, and Preservation is awful.

Disagree, again. Weapon of Remedy is good because:

1, it gives you another spammable healing and condition-removal spell, complementing Spirit Light and MbaS
2, and more importantly, it is good when things actually go bad, for example, when your spirits are nuked; when you don't have the time to throw up another Life because of some hard damage; when you have to run for an ally. Unlike Spirit Light Weapon, Icy Veins or Reaper's Mark it is a skill that will actually make a difference on an N/Rt healer bar in a tight spot.

Quote:

That depends heavily on where you're playing and what you're throwing it at. It's obviously awful against hard mode centaurs, but it's not worthless against, say, normal mode EotN Charr.

The explosion effect is similar of course; it's worthless if you're fighting Jotuns, but it's far from worthless against big stone summit, undead or other mobs packed in tight dungeon corridors.

I agree completely. That's why I agreed when you earlier said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Even if you have a monstrous Soul Reaping spec the damage is pathetic in any of the advanced stages of the game, where armor respecting damage starts to lose value quickly.

Like I said... it's a great spell when farming Ornate Grawl Necklaces! And if you're talking about "big summit, undead or other mobs packed in tight dungeon corridors"... one casting of Spiteful Spirit will rape ten Icy Veins. How can any reasonable PvE group have a problem clearing such an obstacle?

Furthermore;

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The kinds of characters that would run Icy Veins are not the kinds of characters I would want in Hard Mode; certainly not on a player character. I can see running it on a hero if you need some odd niche thing but that's the extent of it.

That depends on what you mean by "wanting" them. Example of, in my opinion, quite viable use of a dedicated N/Rt healer build:

Eternal Grove and Gyala Hatchery HM. Both missions hero'ed in company with a W/ friend, for Guardian of Cantha title. Quickly we realized we had no hope to save all the mini turtles with no human healer - all spawns of Kurzick could not be eliminated before march. Same applied for resisting the waves in Eternal Grove. Obviously, I went healer, since my W/ friend clearly could not. With me switching from hex to heal, we cleared both missions.

thor hammerbane · Jan 23, 2008, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Blood does suck... Can't provide good offense, can't provide good pressure, can't provide any shutdown. Curses is by far the best necro line out there. It can damage, shutdown, pressure, everything packed into one little package. Death magic is a tad overrated in my mind. It's just used for minion masters. I used to use the toxic chill necro/assasin in ra, but after that blew up into oblivion, I ditched it. Yes, I used it before it became everyone necro's wet dream. But, I digress..back on topic

For necros, Curse>All

Ensign · Jan 23, 2008, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

1, it gives you another spammable healing and condition-removal spell, complementing Spirit Light and MbaS

Except it's worse than both of them. How many spammable healing spells do you need? You can certainly run it as a 3rd spam heal if you really must, but I think, as I've said, that spending your elite on a 3rd spam heal, that is weaker than the other two you already have, is worse than giving yourself another ability. Wielder's Boon is a stronger skill in the situations that matter than Weapon of Remedy, and I personally wouldn't bother running that either since the first two heals do such a good job as is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

2, and more importantly, it is good when things actually go bad

No, actually, it's utter shit when things actually go bad because it's the weakest and least efficient skill on your bar. Unless you have some definition of things going bad where you still have bottomless energy and the luxury of time, the skill on your bar with the *worst* health per second spent casting, and the *worst* health per energy does not suddenly become money.

Things going to hell is actually when Spirit Light Weapon becomes valuable at all, because the damage coming in is widespread enough that your 1.5 copies of Weapon of Warding can't cover things effectively anymore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

And if you're talking about "big summit, undead or other mobs packed in tight dungeon corridors"... one casting of Spiteful Spirit will rape ten Icy Veins. How can any reasonable PvE group have a problem clearing such an obstacle?

No, the difference between Icy Veins and Spiteful Spirit in those situations is not 10-fold. It might not even be 2-fold. It might not even be better at all. How can any group have a problem clearing such an obstacle? Do we only have builds for areas we're having problems with?

Spiteful Spirit, Spoil Victor, and Icy Veins, for the most part, all do the same job - they do incidental damage to non-priority mobs, cleaning up a beaten mob more quickly. How effective each is depends on what you are fighting; how many of them there are, their armor levels, and how quickly things are dying.

Of course Spiteful is the best of the 3 in the hardest areas of hard mode PvE. On the other hand, Icy Veins does outperform Spiteful Spirit in a lot of areas of normal mode PvE. Mobs don't always have 100 armor, and they don't always take forever to kill. When I herohenched my way through EotN with my Necro I ran Icy Veins on occasion and I didn't think it bad at all. It was downright good in some of the Charr and Asuran areas.

What exactly is your point, that Icy Veins is not good in the hardest of Hard Mode areas? Well duh. That's a far cry from 'this skill is useless and you shouldn't run it anywhere', a point you've been trying to make that is, bluntly, moronic.

Dr Strangelove · Jan 23, 2008, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

No, actually, it's utter shit when things actually go bad because it's the weakest and least efficient skill on your bar. Unless you have some definition of things going bad where you still have bottomless energy and the luxury of time, the skill on your bar with the *worst* health per second spent casting, and the *worst* health per energy does not suddenly become money.

In PvE, weapon of remedy really has no purpose but as a space filler when you have nothing better to do - just like icy veins. The big reason to take WoR over icy veins is just to ease up on the micromanagement - mashing buttons towards allies is easier than mashing buttons towards allies and enemies. I agree that in tight situations, you should stay far away it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Things going to hell is actually when Spirit Light Weapon becomes valuable at all, because the damage coming in is widespread enough that your 1.5 copies of Weapon of Warding can't cover things effectively anymore.

Any way you look at it, spirit light weapon is pretty shitty. First, it's a heal over time. When things are getting dicey, you need healing now, not 10 seconds from now. Second, the numbers aren't all that great on it. It's going to heal between 120-240 health over 10 seconds, while spirit light heals for 156. In practice, your melee isn't going to give a shit about staying in range of spirits, so you end up on the lower end of that range. I really can't think of a situation where I'd strongly prefer SLW to a simple spirit light. It's not a replacement for weapon of warding, it's an elite healing breeze that screws over any other weapon spells you might want to use.

Moloch Vein · Jan 23, 2008, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

No, actually, it's utter shit when things actually go bad because it's the weakest and least efficient skill on your bar. Unless you have some definition of things going bad where you still have bottomless energy and the luxury of time, the skill on your bar with the *worst* health per second spent casting, and the *worst* health per energy does not suddenly become money.

First of all, a necromancer does tend to have pretty decent energy when things do go bad. At least, he tends to have better energy than most everyone around him.

Second, WoR is a skill that's got practically unconditional condition removal, it's practically uninterruptable and needs to be slowed 4x to get as slow to cast as Spirit Light - a very fast cast - and it always provides the exact same effect regardless of the presence of spirits.

Quote:

Things going to hell is actually when Spirit Light Weapon becomes valuable at all, because the damage coming in is widespread enough that your 1.5 copies of Weapon of Warding can't cover things effectively anymore.

When things go to hell, generally speaking, an extra five (or ten if you're lucky) pips of health regeneration isn't going to save the day. The raw healing power of both spells isn't great, but WoR recharges faster, provides more spam capability, and includes a secondary effect that can very well be most useful.

Quote:

No, the difference between Icy Veins and Spiteful Spirit in those situations is not 10-fold. It might not even be 2-fold. It might not even be better at all.

[...]

Spiteful Spirit, Spoil Victor, and Icy Veins, for the most part, all do the same job - they do incidental damage to non-priority mobs, cleaning up a beaten mob more quickly. How effective each is depends on what you are fighting; how many of them there are, their armor levels, and how quickly things are dying.

Of course Spiteful is the best of the 3 in the hardest areas of hard mode PvE. On the other hand, Icy Veins does outperform Spiteful Spirit in a lot of areas of normal mode PvE. Mobs don't always have 100 armor, and they don't always take forever to kill. When I herohenched my way through EotN with my Necro I ran Icy Veins on occasion and I didn't think it bad at all. It was downright good in some of the Charr and Asuran areas.

What exactly is your point, that Icy Veins is not good in the hardest of Hard Mode areas? Well duh. That's a far cry from 'this skill is useless and you shouldn't run it anywhere', a point you've been trying to make that is, bluntly, moronic.

First of all, there isn't much reason to get insulting. I have tried my best to treat people with respect. I do expect the same courtesy by a well-known and liked member of the forum, despite disagreeing with you.

Second, let's take these things one by one.

"Spiteful Spirit, Spoil Victor, and Icy Veins, for the most part, all do the same job - they do incidental damage to non-priority mobs, cleaning up a beaten mob more quickly."

This isn't true. Their function isn't the same at all. SV deals focused damage to a priority target. The fact that the target isn't called for focused fire means nothing.

Spiteful Spirit pressures and kills PvE mobs on its own. There is no single character in the game capable of delivering more damage per second to a PvE mob than an SS necromancer.

Only Icy Veins fits the profile you described.

Of course Spiteful is the best of the 3 in the hardest areas of hard mode PvE. On the other hand, Icy Veins does outperform Spiteful Spirit in a lot of areas of normal mode PvE. Mobs don't always have 100 armor, and they don't always take forever to kill.

This is also false, unless you're talking about Old Ascalon dye farming. As soon as enemies reach your own level or higher, generally speaking, SS will be a lot stronger. The exact cutpoint is open to debate.

What exactly is your point, that Icy Veins is not good in the hardest of Hard Mode areas? Well duh.

No, that was never my point. My point is that when the bars you are running matter, Icy Veins is weak to abysmal.